His Holiness the Dali Lama: WG Audience May 7, 1998 Washington NJ

Wisdom's Goldenrod Audience with His Holiness the Dalai Lama

May 7, 1998, Washington, New Jersey

[Note:  "(Eng.:)" precedes His Holiness's comments spoken in English;

"(Tib.:)" precedes his comments spoken in Tibetan and translated for

him into English.]



Herbert:  Your Holiness, I've been asked to speak for the group.  Ella

May, our spiritual mother, is ill, and she sends you her prayers.  She

just sends you her fond regards.  We're honored that you have granted

us an interview, an audience.  We don't want to waste your time; we

have some concerns we'd like to address for the truth.  We want you to

address us-that's why we're here.  We have questions, we have specific

questions if you want them, but really if you could talk for say an

hour or so-- (laughter)


If it's possible, would you grant us say five minutes of meditation

also?  That would be wonderful.


HHDL:  (Eng.:)  Your late spiritual

master was great friend of mine, as you know.  So I really feel some

kind of special connection with him.  So as it should be between. . . 

Whenever I see the followers of him, I extremely happy.  So, greetings.


So how is your Center?  Doing normal?


Herbert:  We are going along.


HHDL:  Hm.


Herbert:  We have classes.


HHDL:  Hm.


Herbert:  We have summer study programs.


HHDL:  Hm.


Herbert:  We have several people who are part of our group publishing. 

We have programs for young people.  And we're trying to progress.  One

of the questions we ask is, can you address the question of sangha to

us?  Specifically, the material world impinges on us, and it's very

hard.  Most of us-we are all householders.  No monks.  That's hard. 

So, that was one of the questions we thought to ask you, if you could

speak to and try to inspire us towards . . .


HHDL:  Hm.  (Eng.:)  This morning I told the followers of late

[Ishyawandala?] that, they, similar, yeah.  Your work, or your Center,

not for one individual person, but certain, as a concept or certain

spirit [?].  So therefore, whether that person alive or not, the spirit

or the concept *must* continue.  Vision.  Ah-vision should be

continued.  So I am very glad you all carry that same spirit.  That is

very very important.  So sometimes any noble work carry, is bound to

face some obstacles.  I think the more nobler-more noble, is more

hindrance.  That is, I think, quite normal, quite natural.  So, when

you face some hindrance or obstacle, you should increase your

determination or your enthusiasm and determination.  So, about sangha?


Sangha-in the sense that, say, community.  Community.  Community of

some certain or special relation.  (Tib.:)  You actually already

mentioned some of the activities that have been pursued at your Center;

for example, like courses that have been given and publications that

you are bringing out.  These are the activities that will draw

everybody together, because these are shared,  that these activities

represent your shared vision and shared beliefs.  So it is through

these communal activities that you can create a sense of community. 

But other than that, His Holiness will say that he doesn't really have

much to say.


(Eng.:)  I don't know.  So some questions.


Herbert:  Could you speak to, many of us have children.  Do you have

any words that perhaps might inspire our children to meditation?  And

the value of meditation?  Obviously it's quite important, the essence

of the practice.


HHDL:  (Eng.:)  Meditation, in broad sense, is a certain technique to

increase the mental strength.  (Tib.:)  Given that meditation is a form

of mental discipline, the more you engage in it, the better the chances

for increasing your faculties such as sharpness, clarity, or thought. 

And also your power of recollection, memory.  So, and the more you have

developed these faculties, then you'll be better equipped to deal with

any forms of activities, any forms of disciplines that you want to

engage in.


And from another point-of-view, meditation is also a form of

relaxation, sort of a form of giving respite to your mind.  And I'm

very certain that meditation and mental discipline will be tremendously

helpful, especially for the youth to live their life.  Of course, this

also means that through mental discipline, when you increase sharpness

of your intelligence and also your faculties of memory and so forth,

when these are used in a negative way of course you gain more power as

well, and then destructive side is . . . (laughter)


(Eng.:)  So, one hand, meditation very important; but other hand, the

warm heart, good heart.  That's it.  Equally.  And even more important.


Herbert:  You spoke today in your talk about balancing self-thought

with other-thought.  Could you speak more about that in relation to the

[?] and how the other is better, so to speak?


HHDL:  (Tib.:)  In terms of trying to cultivate a thought which will

cherish more the well-being of others, than being totally involved with

one's own self-interest and cherishing one's own interest, one of the

ways in which one can sort of right [?] this is to contemplate on the

negative consequences of being self-obsessed or self-absorbed, and also

on the positive consequences of more expansive thinking and cherishing

the well-being of others.  So it's by judging on the positive and

negative consequences of the two kinds of thoughts.


However, this is not to suggest that one should, one is expected to

totally disregard one's own self-interest for the sake of others. 

That's not the message.  However, in very specific context of

meditative practice, sometimes we do find certain techniques, for

example like in "Guide to the Bodhisattva's Way of Life", this text by

Shantideva, sometimes we do find special context where we may have to-

in order to correct the balance-sometimes reflect upon even the

negative consequences of simply cherishing one's own interest.  But the

bottom line really is to maintain a balance, so that you have a regard

for both your own interest and also others' interest.


So, I also spoke about twin forces.  One is the thought cherishing

one's own self-interest at the expense of others and so on.  There is

another side of that which is grasping at some form of true existence

of oneself.  In our normal states of mind, it seems that one reinforces

the other.  This self-cherishing thought and self-grasping thought seem

to reinforce each other.  However, even without having any deep insight

into emptiness or selflessness, as the Buddhists would call it; even

without such a deep insight, it is possible through training of mind,

through meditation, to at least reduce the force of clinging at one's

own self-interest, that kind of strong self-cherishing.


So, although these two forces reinforce each other, they have kind of

relatively autonomous sources.  So, just as one can reduce the force of

self-cherishing without having any deeper insights into emptiness,

similarly, simply by having deeper insights into emptiness does not

necessarily lead to overcoming self-cherishing thoughts.


The point here is that even if the person has deeper insights into

emptiness, that alone isn't adequate to overcome the forces of the

self-cherishing thought; in order to counter which, one has to

deliberately and consciously cultivate thoughts that cherishes others'

well-being.  There needs to be that kind of affirmative approach.  Of

course this is a rather complex subject and I'm here talking from the

Buddhist point-of-view.


Herbert:  Uh, we like the Buddhist point-of-view!  (laughter)  Many of

us study the Buddhist point-of-view.  (laughs)


Avery had a question.


HHDL:  Hm?  Yes.


Avery:  Well, Your Holiness, this is partly a question, but, uh, we

really love you, and that's why we're here.  We really want to express

our sincere appreciation for everything you do for us.  In our

tradition, sitting with a sage and being in their Presence means

everything . . . it's everything, everything.


HHDL:  I think that's,


Avery:  . . . almost.


HHDL:  I think a little too extreme, I think!  (all laugh)


Avery:  A little too extreme!  It's a lot-and we're often, we know that

you've made this commitment to Anthony,


HHDL:  M-hm!  Yes.


Avery:  and we hear things about it, and I think we really want to tell

you that we feel, from our point-of-view, that you have done so much

for us-both real and imagined-(laughter).  We don't know, I mean

sometimes, but in our point-of-view, the fact that you allow us to have

contact with you, and to allow us to open a connection to you, and

allow us to be in your Presence as much as you do, is unbelievable for

us.  We couldn't ask for anything more.  There's nothing more we could

ask for.  It's *so* incredible.  And so we're sometimes surprised at

your surprise at not knowing how much you do for us.  I mean we just-,

I don't have words to tell you.  I really don't. 


HHDL:  . . . Thank you.   . . .


Avery:  . . . And we hope we could sit just a few minutes quietly.


HHDL:  Yes, of course, yes . . .  I want . . .


Avery:  And, there is one other thing.  We have something we'll give

you later . . .


HHDL:  (Eng.:)  If you feel, you see, from my side, you see you give

somebody benefit, then you can utilize, *maximum*!  That's my sort of

dedication.  My very existence, is if something benefit for others.  So

if you feel something good from it, something beneficial, then I'm only

happy.  Although I feel my own, very limited-I wish to offer more, but

of course, myself  . . . [puts index finger and thumb close together to

indicate small amount]  So?


Avery:  But your Holiness, there is one thing you could do for us. 

It's a big request.


HHDL:  Uh-huh.


Avery:  We'd like to invite you to come to Ithaca.  (laughter)  I'm

serious; we've written out some possibilities.  One of them is to just

totally offer you our Center.  If you want to come at any time you're

in the country to stay there, we'll clear everybody out. . . 



HHDL:  (Tib.:)  His Holiness say that you don't have to help me, he can

do it himself!  (laughter)  Perhaps, if necessary, with the help of a

stick!  (more laughter!)


Avery:  Or, if you need the service of 60 or 70 would-be philosophers,

we'd offer those services too.  Or, we've contemplated trying to set up

some kind of conference on the nature of mind.  We know you've been

interested . . .


HHDL:  I think that's good.  That's good, that's very good.


Avery:  and invite you as a participant,  to share our views--


HHDL:   That's very good.


Avery:  east and west philosophy, about the nature of mind, scientific

and otherwise.  With Cornell and Namgyal [Tibetan Monastery in Ithaca]. 

And the issues you were so interested in a few years ago on the nature

of, the relation of the old and new schools' view of the mind.  We're

tremendously interested in that.


HHDL:  Hm.


Avery:  And we think others would be also.  And in some kind of a

forum, that, you know, you could enjoy a dialogue, or something.


HHDL:  Hm.  I like that, very good.  Hm.  M-hm.


Avery:  We would love, we'd love to set that up.


HHDL:  (Eng.:)  And through such meeting, [?] . . . your group,

possibly gain some-ah-have a new, new insight.  That very good, very



Avery:  That would be even beyond our imagination!  That would be



HHDL:  (Tib.:)  His Holiness was saying that you should communicate

with him through correspondence, and then we can set a time, and . . . 

(Eng.:)  Ah, very good.  Hm.  [pause]  When you express with such . . . 

(Tib.:)  So he said that since you expressed your strong feelings in

such a way, with such trust and conviction, His Holiness was saying

that he's beginning to feel the weight of the responsibility--



Although I feel that there isn't much that I can really do to fulfill

your wishes and to be of real benefit, but however on my part there is

a total preparedness, and with joy and happiness I'll do all my best.


Avery:  We should go for three.  We have a piece of Astronoesis here .

. .


HHDL:  What's that?  What's that?  What what?


[words and laughter between HHDL and Avery, indecipherable]


Avery:  No, we're very close to finally, after many years, having

Anthony's book ready for publication.


HHDL:  Oh, very good!


Avery:  And we have a small piece of it with beautiful layout.  And

we're going to give you-don't read it now!  (laughter)  Spend time

reading [?] maybe, I don't know.  So, we'll give it to you to take with



[Avery presents His Holiness with of an example layout of part of

Anthony's new book, "Astronoesis"]


HHDL:  Ah.  Ah.  . . . Anything else?


Nancy:  As you know, we study many different philosophies at Wisdom's

Goldenrod.  So in connection with the conference on nature of mind,

perhaps the approach of various schools from various traditions . . .


HHDL:  Hm.  Yes.  (Tib.:)  This will also be enriching for His

Holiness, because he will have exposure to other points-of-view.


Nancy:  Then, in connection with the class on Buddhism, we study

Buddhism, we study your writings, and some of the great masters.  But

many of us are not, have not taken the Bodhisattva vows or the refuge,

are not practicing Buddhists, and yet study Buddhist philosophy.


HHDL:  That's right way.


Nancy:  It's okay?


HHDL:  That's right way.  Study!  More.  And, become Buddhist . . .

later.  Later.  No hurry! (laughs)  (Eng.:)  I think, is very good. 

Very important to check, to test some of that.  (Tib.:)  It's very

important to pursue the mind of enquiry.  So we'll do a short

meditation, a silent meditation together.  (Eng.:)  I think usually I

give, sort of, individual choice.  But, perhaps, I think here, in this

case, I think one subject, all people concentrate together.  Maybe, I

think useful.  Hm.


(Tib.:)  How about just reflecting upon the nature of the very

meditator himself or herself, who is meditating.  (Eng.:)  That state

we call analytical meditation.  Then, finally, we can't find.  So

that's the sign of emptiness.  It does not mean non-existence.  So

existence is . . . (Tib.:)  So, through such a process, we will arrive

at a point that we can't seem to find who the meditator is, and then,

but however, this does not suggest that we don't exist as individuals. 

Of course, we do, so the existence is to be understood in terms of

dependent nature of reality.  How things exist only in dependence upon

other factors.  (Eng.:)  So, five minutes.  Meditate.


                                               [five-minute meditation]


HHDL:  Thank you.  (Tib.:)  This kind of meditation is actually quite

effective when, . . . if you are feeling unsettled, rather disturbed by

certain provocation or such incident, then, try to take a pause and

then try to examine, who is that "I" that is experiencing this, this

disturbance?  And this can have a calming effect.


So, as I mentioned there, when you begin to get more and more familiar

with this kind of meditation, examining the nature of self, or the

experiencer of these faults, then you get to a point where, although of

course as individuals you will continue to use self-reference terms

like "I" and "I am", but your attachment to it will be less strong.  So

then there will be no . . .  So the sense of self, the object to which

you refer to as self, will be always kind of ephemeral, kind of a

fluid.  Fluid.


Even in my own case, in my daily practice, in my own case, meditation

on emptiness and meditation on trying to counteract the forces of self-

cherishing thought and cultivating thought cherishing the well-being of

others, these are the two key elements of my meditation.


(Eng.:)  My age, I think, when I, of course, study Buddhism-six, seven

years old, since then I study, I begin to study.  But then, because of

a little fear of my tutor, so I compel [?], compel study-no sort of,

volunteer-voluntariness.  Then I think I study volunteerly, that I

think around 15-16 years old.  Then, real sort of interest develop, and

meantime, practice, meditation, only started.


But then, somewhere more, around my age, I think, late 20's, after

become refugee, I think 26, 27, 28, 29, I think these years, I put

special sort of *effort* to try to understand emptiness.  Then,

although still I cannot claim I have this experience, proper

experience, but certainly, you see, I gained some experience.  Some

experience.  As a result, the admiration about, towards Buddha, and it

was his teaching.  In other words, I think firstly, when I understand

through little experience about emptiness, then I develop real sort of

admiration for Buddhist teaching.  And through that way, I develop some

kind of a *strong* faith through reasoning, towards Buddha.


At that time, still, I find it very difficult to meditate or to

practice about the bodhicitta. [Infinite altruism ?].  Then, around I

think the early 50's, my age around 30's, then, step by step,

gradually, you see,  my feeling evolved altruism.  Something! 

Something.  Something there.  So then since then, these practices,

these two practices of meditation on shunya, meditation on altruism,

these have become my main practice.


Now 63.  63-year old.  Still very limited experience.  But even that

small, limited experience for *immense* benefit.  So, so meditation on

shunya, or concept of shunya, concept of altruism, these are some

things very [living truth ?].  So there.  So I want to share.


Thank you.  he he he.




Respectfully transcribed by Greg Kramer.

Audio copies provided by Graham Hall and Bill White